Welcome to the Samurai Battles forum!

Tell us and our members who you are, what you like and why you became a member of this site.
We welcome all new members and hope to see you around a lot!

SBVT3 Genpei Wars tournament match results

More
8 years 6 months ago #377 by Mark-McG
took the New Units from here
www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/1415210/genpei-project-new-units

and the new terrain from
www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/1415213/genpei-project-new-terrain

be much easier if the Notes contained the new unit rules, (or the charts)

“I dreamt of worldly success once.”
― Miyamoto Musashi

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
8 years 6 months ago #378 by g1ul10
You can in any case refer to the command and terrain cards I've included in the new version of the extension. They could help. To access the new cards click on the brown card icon on the right of the clock in the icon bar.
Attachments:

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
8 years 6 months ago #379 by goshublue

Mark McG wrote: took the New Units from here
www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/1415210/genpei-project-new-units

and the new terrain from
www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/1415213/genpei-project-new-terrain

be much easier if the Notes contained the new unit rules, (or the charts)


I'm sorry about that. I thought you and I had already playtested a scenario with the revised monk rules.

Those threads on the BGG forum are long redundant and should be ignored……all updates are in the blog and I've been keeping a running log of playtesting, scenario and rules development there (for the two people who read it :) ). I wasn't going to cancel those initial forum threads as they have other posters' comments in them but I'll make a note in them to redirect to the blog.

I don't think it's feasible to repost non-scenario specific rules in every scenario's Vassal notes, any more than it would be in the regular game. This would be a big problem with lengthy rules like the Naval rules. The rules for terrain are linked in each of the scenario descriptions in the blog and I think Giulio has already added the monk and terrain rules to the charts in the Vassal extension.

Brent.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
8 years 6 months ago - 8 years 6 months ago #380 by Mark-McG

g1ul10 wrote: You can in any case refer to the command and terrain cards I've included in the new version of the extension. They could help. To access the new cards click on the brown card icon on the right of the clock in the icon bar.


for me, I found the cards had all the titles of the units not displayed.
I've subsequently realised I could have dragged the cards out as terrain.

I'm sorry about that. I thought you and I had already playtested a scenario with the revised monk rules.

anything that is reliant on my memory is doomed to failure..

“I dreamt of worldly success once.”
― Miyamoto Musashi
Last edit: 8 years 6 months ago by Mark-McG.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
8 years 5 months ago #381 by goshublue
GP11. Shihoyama

BrentS Banners 5 (Block lost 6)
Giulio Banners 1 (Blocks lost 21)

This is one of the more unbalanced scenarios and it didn't help that I had a Cavalry Charge. Giulio had some terrible luck when he lost a Personal Challenge despite having dice advantage and then rolling too well killing my cavalry with one unit when he needed to do it with a second unit to take ground and protect his final 1 block unit.
I've given the Taira 5 red units with a chance to get into defensive position before the cavalry hit. I'm hoping to see some Taira turn the tables but if they're all overruns I'll think about tweaking it.

Brent.
Attachments:

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
8 years 5 months ago #382 by goshublue
Mark, I only just noted that you'd posted some comments in the Genpei blog following your GP04. Miidera match. Thanks for those. Sorry, I didn't see them (subscription failure). I posted some thoughts there but I'm sure nobody will see it, so I've pasted part of it here, specifically in response to the role and power of monks in general in these scenarios.

I'm very keen on feedback for these scenarios and they will certainly alter based on the results of this tournament, but I thought it might be helpful to clarify some of the design decisions I've made.

Mark wrote:

5-1 Taira win, and the Monks were pushing to get that banner.

Monks are all Blue, which makes all Red units able to ignore a Sword and a Flag, and for the cavalry, 2 Swords. Ergo, the Red units attack. Monks can get stuck with Green & Red cards.


I agree the monks are outmatched toe to toe against reds, as is the case with all three colour level mismatches and cavalry in this game....although their H&F rerolling does give them a boost over the standard Ashigaru Spearman. This mismatch is intentional for simulation purposes and is designed to be specific to the few limited scenarios that predominantly feature the monks (only 4 out of 30....Taiken Gate, First Uji, Midera and Nara). It was not planned as a design feature for monks in general. I was more interested in how well the monks can fight their lost cause for this brief historical period than creating a general system for monks. In my solo playtesting of this scenario, which I think is the hardest of all the scenarios for the monks, the results were 75% Taira/25% monks, which is about where I wanted it.

What this first phase of the Genpei War clearly demonstrated, with the Taira victory over predominantly sohei forces at The First Battle of Uji, Miidera and Nara (and to some extent Taiken Gate a few years before the war) was the ascendancy of samurai equipment, tactics, organisation and particularly combined arms systems over the religious warriors. By the end of Nara, in six quick months from the initial showdown at Uji, the Taira had completely and utterly broken the temples as a military force. This had been coming for some time and it was only the awe and reverence in which the temples were held, and the belligerence of the sohei, which had kept the warrior clans in check until then. Kiyomori blew all of that away.

So the inability of the monks to effectively use order red and green cards, particularly in this scenario which is the only one where they have no other colours, is specifically to reflect the mismatch in tactical systems/combined arms between them and the samurai. Monks do appear in a couple of other scenarios (GP09. Hiuchi Fort and GP16. Siege of Hojuji) but in smaller supplementary numbers as part of a general force, so this would not be an issue there.

I also didn't want to get too complicated......special rules for three different colours of monks would be too much. In all the principle monk scenarios they are combined with another colour, with the exception of Miidera. In those cases these are regular units of their type and this would be how I would handle this in any further hypothetical generic monk scenarios, rather than making new multicoloured monks. So, for the sake of argument, if players wanted to tweak these scenarios to edge their balance toward the monks, I would recommend simply substituting a couple of sohei warrior units with samurai naginatas. I'd also note that in each of these scenarios the monks are given something to protect them or use to their tactical advantage (palisades, defending a river crossing, an instant victory condition at Taiken Gate)......they're never going toe to toe with the reds without a tactical edge to attempt to manipulate. In both Miidera and Nara, the monks have the Palisades to put them on an equal footing in the sword and flag ignoring stakes and working out how to do that (and for the Taira, how to get around it) is part of the tactical challenge.

One oversight that did strike me on reviewing the logfile of your match, is that I have the Taira burning temples for a victory banner if they start their turn occupying them. This was worth 2 quick victory banners to them. While this sort of mechanism is consistent with "occupation banners" in SSRs in other C&C games, I'd moved away from this in later scenarios in the project, making these sorts of destruction/occupation banners available only when the occupying unit is ordered and generally not allowing them to move or battle while they concentrate on the destruction. This swings the tempo back a little to the defender....I expect you might have had an opportunity to score another banner or two against depleted Taira units in your match. I wouldn't change this mid-tournament but will almost certainly do so for the finalised scenario.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
8 years 5 months ago #383 by Mark-McG
I didn't put any deadline, but I'd like to see some matches getting played. Seems to have gone to sleep a bit, though admittedly a busy time of year.

“I dreamt of worldly success once.”
― Miyamoto Musashi

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
8 years 5 months ago #384 by plainscape
Round 3 GP11. Shihoyama, June 1183

Dan (Taira) 1 banners won 20 blocks lost
plainscape (Minamoto) 5 banners won 5 blocks lost

Minamoto sent his right Samurai Cavalry into the Taira left flank to take out the archer. Though the Taira tried to take out this overly extended Cav, he just fought too bravely and managed to destroy the entire Taira left flank. Their leader Totomori committed seppuku for his failures. Ultimately, he fell in honorable battle. But this bought time for the main army to change into the enemy. Facing such a lopsided battle, the Taira withdrew from the battle, defeated.

In all honesty, I thought this one was a little lopsided. Or maybe I just got really really lucky.
Attachments:

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
8 years 5 months ago #385 by goshublue

plainscape wrote: Round 3 GP11. Shihoyama, June 1183

Dan (Taira) 1 banners won 20 blocks lost
plainscape (Minamoto) 5 banners won 5 blocks lost

Minamoto sent his right Samurai Cavalry into the Taira left flank to take out the archer. Though the Taira tried to take out this overly extended Cav, he just fought too bravely and managed to destroy the entire Taira left flank. Their leader Totomori committed seppuku for his failures. Ultimately, he fell in honorable battle. But this bought time for the main army to change into the enemy. Facing such a lopsided battle, the Taira withdrew from the battle, defeated.

In all honesty, I thought this one was a little lopsided. Or maybe I just got really really lucky.


Thanks for the report, Todd. I saw the end of this one.

This is certainly one of the most unbalanced of all the Genpei scenarios. I'm not too fussed about this in a mini-tournament format, where one side is competing to see how well they can perform in defeat, but don't want it to be a miserable experience for one side, either. I'll be giving this one a tweak after the tournament.

Brent.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
8 years 5 months ago #386 by goshublue
Round 1 Miidera

BrentS - Banners 5 Blocks 16
Cavie - Banners 3 Blocks 24

Dan put up a great desperate defense with the monks. He wreaked havoc on my centre with some exploding ranged HF, also taking out my left cavalry unit with a well aimed shot before it could reach the temples. One nice moment happened when my unnamed foot leader in the centre attempted a Personal Challenge across the Palisades with 8-5 dice advantage and lost.......taught a lesson in monkish martial arts fu. It wasn't until I was able to get my rightmost cavalry unit around the edge of the Palisades with a Cavalry Charge that things tipped in favour of the Taira, and Tadanori was able to get into the temples and do some burning. Even then, I had a couple of 1 figure units in striking range and I thought Dan had it when he Counterattacked my Shogun play, but he rolled a blank.....no orders, and I was able to win it on the next turn.

As I've said, I'm planning to modify the temple burning rule and I'm giving some serious thought to allowing battle back on attempts to take down Palisades but will need to playtest this in some of the other scenarios. I never attempted a Palisade takedown here because I never had multiple units in position to attack a single Palisade (which is where I think destroying the Palisades would work best). Even so, Dan showed that the monks can perform in this one.

Brent.
Attachments:

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Time to create page: 2.226 seconds
Powered by Kunena Forum