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SBVT3 Genpei Wars tournament match results

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8 years 10 months ago #387 by Mark-McG
GP11. Shihoyama, June 1183

3 results all 5-1 for the Yellow (Minamoto)
So it had no distinction as a tournament scenario, other than Blocks lost. Red blocks lost were 21, 20,20 so also very uniform. Yellow blocks lost were 5,6, & 9
So I'm still thinking Mounted Samurai Archers instead of Yari Cavalry, and a Taira exit VP option

“I dreamt of worldly success once.”
― Miyamoto Musashi

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8 years 10 months ago #388 by goshublue

Mark McG wrote: GP11. Shihoyama, June 1183

3 results all 5-1 for the Yellow (Minamoto)
So it had no distinction as a tournament scenario, other than Blocks lost. Red blocks lost were 21, 20,20 so also very uniform. Yellow blocks lost were 5,6, & 9
So I'm still thinking Mounted Samurai Archers instead of Yari Cavalry, and a Taira exit VP option


Thanks for this. Seeing people play these and getting feedback is very useful. This is one scenario I had some doubts about using as a tournament scenario (not that that's the sole criteria for design). The idea behind this was to feature a cavalry predominant scenario (all the other C&C games have them) but given the inherent unit imbalance in this game, I think it's a very tough thing to get right.

The use of Yari cavalry was intentional as it's too easy for Mounted Archers to sit at range and cause attrition, then charge and mop up. It would probably be even more unbalanced. Keeping the Minamoto light on ranged ability puts the onus of attack on them. There would be no historical reason for an exit VP condition here, which is still important. I think the answer is adjusting units, probably giving the Taira an extra cavalry and the Minamoto one less.......and possibly letting the Taira go first. I wanted the tactical onus to be on the Taira here to get their scattered units into supported positions, but the results suggest they don't have enough time to do this as it stands.

Brent.

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8 years 10 months ago - 8 years 10 months ago #389 by Mark-McG
From the scenario description
"Yoshinaka took half his cavalry and crossed the mouth of the Himi River, where he found Yukiie and his troops beaten and in retreat. Yoshinaka immediately charged with his fresh troops into the Taira force and defeated them."

If the Taira are in retreat, exiting the board makes sense as a victory objective.

I suspect no Yellow foot units got ordered at all in any of the 3 matches.

“I dreamt of worldly success once.”
― Miyamoto Musashi
Last edit: 8 years 10 months ago by Mark-McG.

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8 years 10 months ago - 8 years 10 months ago #390 by g1ul10
GP06. SUNOMATAGAWA, August 1181

g1ul10 Banners 6 ( Blocks lost 8 )
plainscape Banners 1 ( Blocks lost 25 )

Some confusion at the beginning of the game about forests and fields but finally the game starts and Gien is immediately killed by a personal challenge.The following attack however is a nightmare for the Taira: they inflict no losses and their samurai foot unit is reduced to a single figure. The entire scenario goes along these lines, with the Taira beaten by battle back rolls. Apart the final score, which was dictated more by luck than strategy, it seems to me that the Minamoto can in fact resist on their left side. If they capture the fields there then they have a very good defensive position against the enemy cavalry.
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Last edit: 8 years 10 months ago by g1ul10. Reason: typo

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8 years 10 months ago #391 by goshublue

Mark McG wrote: From the scenario description
"Yoshinaka took half his cavalry and crossed the mouth of the Himi River, where he found Yukiie and his troops beaten and in retreat. Yoshinaka immediately charged with his fresh troops into the Taira force and defeated them."

If the Taira are in retreat, exiting the board makes sense as a victory objective.

I suspect no Yellow foot units got ordered at all in any of the 3 matches.


You're probably right about the yellow foot units.

I think that the answer is adjusting unit composition on each side. Almost by definition, any defeated force was in retreat, so there's nothing special about this battle that would make an exit VP appropriate. I wanted to keep exit VP rules to a minimum........one because they're often wonky and not generally enjoyed in C&C games .........and secondly because I wanted to reserve them for scenarios where they're actually historically distinctive and relevant (two, I think.....Shinohara and Ichi-no-Tani, Fatal Shore).

Shihoyama was a minimally documented sideshow and as with other similar less important battles I wanted to keep them simple and relatively rule free, reserving the special rules for the the more distinctive and important battles.

If I want to feature this as a cavalry scenario and swing it back some way towards the Taira, I'll almost certainly give the Taira more cavalry themselves.

Brent.

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8 years 10 months ago - 8 years 10 months ago #392 by g1ul10
Brent,
you could also consider to move the yellow line one row back so as to increase the distance between the two formations and avoid an initial contact by Cavalry Charge.

Giulio
Last edit: 8 years 10 months ago by g1ul10. Reason: typo

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8 years 10 months ago - 8 years 10 months ago #393 by g1ul10
I think Todd forgot about it so I'll report the outcome of our last game

GP04. MIIDERA, December 1180

g1ul10 Banners 3 ( Blocks lost 23)
toddrew Banners 5 ( Blocks lost 14)

The game has been more tight that the final score suggest. I had the chance to make at least one medal more during the game and I had the opportunity to kill one Red cavalry and its leader in the last turn. A "Brave Leader" played by Todd saved his cornered cavalry and gave him the victory.

If I can dare a suggestion: Brent, I would think about removing the 2 H&F loss when Monks are eliminated. It's not that they are superheroes... once the enemy cavalry manage to go beyond the defensive position they crumble more or less like any other triangle unit. Even if this loss is removed, the scenario is definitely in favor of the red. Plus, the rule is difficult to remember. Just my 2 cents.

File Attachment:

File Name: SBVT3Ttodd...l10.vlog
File Size:111 KB
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Last edit: 8 years 10 months ago by g1ul10.

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8 years 10 months ago - 8 years 10 months ago #394 by Mark-McG
so the results of the Heats are posted
www.commandsandcolors.net/samuraibattles...vt3-genpei-wars.html

Semi-Finals are
g1ul10 vs Mark McG
toddrew vs BrentS

Scenario: GP07. Yahigagawa, August 1181

VASSAL Game file

File Attachment:

File Name: GP07Yahigagawa.vsav
File Size:34 KB


Palisade

This is a temporary fieldwork, which may represent portable wicker or wooden shields, abatis, trenches, moats or bamboo frameworks. They will cover only certain hexsides, as marked on the terrain tile.

Palisades are passable and do not obstruct line of sight.

A unit on a Palisade hex ignores one sword and may ignore one flag result for any attack coming across a Palisade hexside.

An ordered unit adjacent to a Palisade hexside may attempt to destroy it. The player announces that he wishes to attack the Palisade rather than an enemy unit and rolls the unit's normal close combat dice. This may be increased by Leader Inspiration and Command or Dragon Card effects. Any sword result will destroy and remove the Palisade tile. In the case of an attempted destruction of a Palisade tile, enemy units in the Palisade hex are not being targeted and therefore may not battle back.
www.boardgamegeek.com/blogcategory/3636

“I dreamt of worldly success once.”
― Miyamoto Musashi
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Last edit: 8 years 10 months ago by Mark-McG.

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8 years 10 months ago #395 by goshublue

g1ul10 wrote:
If I can dare a suggestion: Brent, I would think about removing the 2 H&F loss when Monks are eliminated. It's not that they are superheroes... once the enemy cavalry manage to go beyond the defensive position they crumble more or less like any other triangle unit. Even if this loss is removed, the scenario is definitely in favor of the red. Plus, the rule is difficult to remember. Just my 2 cents.

File Attachment:

File Name: SBVT3Ttodd...l10.vlog
File Size:111 KB


Thanks Giulio.

The honour loss on death rule for sohei is there for two reasons.

1. Monks tend to accumulate a lot of H&F as exploding dice tend to generate more H&F on rerolls and they also use less HF in combat because they don't have cavalry leaders. I think Dan may have had over 15 at one point in our game for just that reason. H&F reduction on death helps offset that.

2. Monks are given an advantage over regular blue Ashigaru spearmen units. I wanted to give a counterbalancing penalty to even this up so that they're not just super-blues…..same principle as nodachi units against Samurai Naginata.

I think the main issue is that players forget to apply the rule. I haven't found it at all unbalancing in play. The monks' biggest issue is the red-blue divide. I'll have to review your game log to see what happened. Unless it's a major recurrent issue, I'd be inclined to leave things as they are but thanks again for the feedback. It's all very helpful.

Brent.

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8 years 10 months ago - 8 years 10 months ago #396 by g1ul10

goshublue wrote: 1. Monks tend to accumulate a lot of H&F as exploding dice tend to generate more H&F on rerolls and they also use less HF in combat because they don't have cavalry leaders. I think Dan may have had over 15 at one point in our game for just that reason. H&F reduction on death helps offset that.


I think the accumulation of a large amount of H&F in that scenario is dictated more by the lack of mounted leaders than by the exploding dice. In fact the exploding procedure just increases the expected number of H&F per die from 1/6 to around 1/5. Not a huge increase: when you would expect 10 H&F with regular dice, you expect 12 with "monks" dice.

A larger H&F endowment would allow, in principle, a more intense playing of DC. I say in principle because you have always to draw the right ones before playing them. SInce the lack of mounted leaders is hardly an advantage for the monks, the possibility to play more DC cards appears to me as a rebalancing feature.

In any case I agree with you that in that specific scenario, the modification of the rule would not induce any important effect.

P.S.: I think it would be interesting to try to answer the question 'How much H&F should I expect from the combat rolls of a unit before it dies?" It's difficult to produce a general answer, but if we assume that the number of dice a unit rolls before being eliminated is equal to the number of dice necessary for its elimination, which is much probably an overestimation, then from a fight between units of the same rank, I would expect around 2 H&F generated by each unit before elimination with normal dice, and around 2.2 with "monks" dice. This is just an approximation and maybe someone is able to produce better estimates. Hope this could help in thinking about the issue.
Last edit: 8 years 10 months ago by g1ul10. Reason: added the p.s.

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