GG03 Waterloo Epic (18 June 1815)

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2 years 8 months ago #7486 by Mark-McG

Game does illustrate one important fact about CCNappy: The relic from "Battle Cry" of the same VP target for both sides is problematic. Scenarios like this plus historical Allied wins like Victoria and Albuera lean towards the French more than they should.

It is simply time to recognize the obvious: Each side needs a separate "Demoralization (flag) target."

PS. If the typical victory target of 15 flags for both sides is kept, maybe Prussian losses should not be counted in the total or don't include Prussian losses and give the French a 3 permanent banner bonus when they destory 5 Prussian units???

isn't the 15 banners the demoralisation target?
or is the key word ' separate' , meaning different (e.g. 15 for the Allies, 17 for the French?

I can't think why the Prussians should count for less or more, and my understanding is that the Anglo-Allies had even less idea of what the Prussians were doing than the French. What you propose would be a reason to hold the Prussians off the map, or only commit 4 units.

I do think that Guard units should be worth 2 banners, and Old Guard 3 banners. Losing these units had a very strong morale effect on the army.
Conversely, militia should be worthless in terms of banners (as they generally are on the battlefield).

Glory is fleeting, but obscurity is forever.
[img][/img]

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2 years 8 months ago - 2 years 8 months ago #7487 by sharpe1812
Hi Mark,
Thanks for the reply.

1) Regarding Waterloo Epic, the game does not achieve G's goal of a likely Coalition victory (55%-60%).  My "fix" was to suggest that Prussian losses should not count against the Allies.  If this seems too generous, I simply am proposing some incentive for the French player to engage the Prussians.  That could take many forms.  It could be as I proposed - French earn 3 permanent banners upon eliminating 5 Prussian units (in your counter the Coalition would be giving up 11 units to avoid this!) or maybe 1 banner for every two Prussian losses.  If separate Banner totals were agreed upon, Coalition morale could even be increased upon the entry of Prussian reinforcements.  The possibilities are many.

The game is unbalanced in favor of the French as it stands.

2) Regarding CCNapoleonics, the simple solution to many scenarios is to each side have different Banner targets.  Yes, for example, Victoria, a 71% French victory, should increase the flags needed by the French to win.  For example, increase the French target to 10 or 11 banners and keep the Coalition at 9 banners.

3) Extra banners for elite or guard units are also an excellent idea.  Note that only in 1 or my 3 Waterloo Epic plays did the OG become engaged, and it took a "Call Up the Reserves" Tacticians' card to make that happen.
Last edit: 2 years 8 months ago by sharpe1812.

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2 years 8 months ago #7488 by GG
Hello Generals!
First TY to play & appreciate this scenario.
Be very full of care: To judge the balance of a scenario needs many many tests! Some for example keep on making the Prussians arriving from the bottom side and get trapped by the French for a massacre! For me I use to win with the Prussians while refusing sometimes to enter all the reinforcements etc. So please keep on testing WITH DIFFERENT OPPONENTS! Plus in case (and after more tests with different players) the French seems always still too strong: I hate the solution of different VP goals but I still have in reserve some other classical solution to fix that. For example the 3 famous building hexes can also become EACH 1VP for the Allies (instead of only 1VP for the majority) etc.
Vive la Republique! Guillaume Gleize
Chasseurs a Cheval de la Garde Imperiale

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2 years 8 months ago #7489 by Mark-McG


1) Regarding Waterloo Epic, the game does not achieve G's goal of a likely Coalition victory (55%-60%).  My "fix" was to suggest that Prussian losses should not count against the Allies.  If this seems too generous, I simply am proposing some incentive for the French player to engage the Prussians.  

I would say this is something the Allied player needs to address, that the Prussians be sufficiently aggressive to force the French to engage them.

The game is unbalanced in favor of the French as it stands.

2) Regarding CCNapoleonics, the simple solution to many scenarios is to each side have different Banner targets.  Yes, for example, Victoria, a 71% French victory, should increase the flags needed by the French to win.  For example, increase the French target to 10 or 11 banners and keep the Coalition at 9 banners.

3) Extra banners for elite or guard units are also an excellent idea.  Note that only in 1 or my 3 Waterloo Epic plays did the OG become engaged, and it took a "Call Up the Reserves" Tacticians' card to make that happen.

Some while ago I proposed a bidding system that could be used to re-balance scenarios, and without re-iterating that, my original concept was to give the unfavoured side banners at start, but it would work equally well (and perhaps be better) by adding Banners to the favoured side equivalent to the bid.

So as an example, this scenario is to 15 banners. If a side bids 2 banners to play the Allies, then they would have to score 2 extra banners (17 in total).

I've found in Waterloo scenarios, I tend to draw the OG towards La Haye Sainte for the assault. They hit pretty hard with Forced March or Bayonet Charge.

Glory is fleeting, but obscurity is forever.
[img][/img]

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2 years 8 months ago #7491 by Hawkmoon
Very interesting conversation indeed !
The arrival of the Prussians, the time we've been playing this map, gave an opportunity for the French side to score banners and win the game easily maybe because Prussians were weak against complete french units.
I like the idea of different number banners for each side.
Vive l'Empereur !
Vive la France !

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2 years 8 months ago #7492 by GG
Hello,
Once again Gentlemen I completely disagree with the solution of 2 different number of banners whether for this scenario or for any other.
This system is no beautiful in my eyes and had never been used in any official scenario. On the other hand many other "traditional" way to "fix" a scenario exist. As I said: I'm really not sure this scenario is still unbalanced (I recently changed some rules in favor of the allies) and many other tries must be done.
I think the ideal for a scenario is to stand between 50% and 60% in favor of the historical winner. OK it's still not the case for this one but we need to give the new rule time to change the stats. If it was to stay this way after a delay, I could (for example) give the allies 1 VP for EACH ONE of the famous 3 objective buildings (instead of the actual 1VP for the majority). For sure you are free to play it with any house rule at home but on my side I will never put 2 different number of banners to reach in any of my scenarios. Keep on reporting the sessions.
Best regards Generals - GG

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2 years 6 months ago #7667 by ANDRE
While reading the thread, I'm a little confused, the Prussians go to free cells if they are busy, you can withdraw them in the next moves, although the rules say that if there is no space, then the units can no longer appear in the game, what will be the correct rule. We have always played who could not now enter the free cages that is lost forever.

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2 years 6 months ago - 2 years 6 months ago #7668 by GG
Hello,
TY to be interested in this scenario.
For me I'm not sure to understand the first part of your question (sorry)?
The Prussians just play NORMALLY as soon they are arrive. All normal rules then apply.
The only point is if there is not enough ROOM (entry hex free) the moment they arrive: the extra units are lost!
Please only read the ACTUAL special rules IN the scenario. The discussions here may only be ideas!
(If any difference with the VASSAL rules, the rules HERE are the one updated). 
Regards - GG
Last edit: 2 years 6 months ago by GG.
The following user(s) said Thank You: ANDRE

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1 year 10 months ago #7915 by magooF15
Played it solo cuz I’m stuck in my “Covid Bunker” for 5 days while fending off the dreaded “RONA”. Probably tried to do a “d’Erlon’s Attack” in the center too early because I didn’t get a chance to soften up the Allied center enough. The result was a steady attrition of the French infantry by Allied rifle and cannon fire. The flanks were somewhat historically accurate with the French gaining a toehold on the right flank but never really getting anywhere around Hougomont. End result, the Prussian tide caved in what was left of the French right flank as the Young Guard sacrificed themselves in hopes of the Grumblers getting there to save the day…but it was too little, too late. Allied Victory 15-8. So GG I’m still confused, is the definitive special rule regarding the Prussians all come in on turn 9, or staggered 9 and 7? Great fun, gonna try it again allowing the French to soften the Allied middle before unleashing the French hordes.

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1 year 2 months ago #8579 by rear admiral bolitho
playing as British lost to the French 7-8

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