Making the Russians better

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8 years 5 months ago #3615 by Mark-McG
Replied by Mark-McG on topic Making the Russians better
Having looked some more into this, I'm not actually sure that Infantry unit strength has much overall affect on balance of scenarios.

So the effect of the Russian Line being 4 and going to 5 strength by Mother Russia being significantly different on scenario balance from 3 going to 4 seems to be not likely.
However, the issue for me is that the Russian Line Infantry seems to not behave historically.
Russian infantry seemed to be;
resilient and durable
poor shooting
pro-bayonet attacks
www.napolun.com/mirror/napoleonistyka.at...Russian_infantry.htm

all the things that Austrian infantry seem to be (without the battalion mass) , but tougher and quicker.

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8 years 5 months ago - 8 years 5 months ago #3648 by Mark-McG
Replied by Mark-McG on topic Making the Russians better
so after some more experimentation I've come to a few conclusions;

1. Infantry unit strength has little or no overall affect on balance of scenarios.
2. a negative Mother Russia roll (i.e. where all Russian LN start at 4 and an INF die result depletes a LN unit to 3) is pretty close to the same as a normal Mother Russia roll in most instances.

French and British observer accounts of Russian infantry performance stress
- stoic durability under fire
- poor marksmanship
- eagerness to use bayonet
- ability to march distances at speed
- tactically used columns over lines

www.napolun.com/mirror/napoleonistyka.at...Russian_infantry.htm

so I think my next experiment will be 5 block Russian LN that round down fire.
Looking at the written accounts, I'm sort of the opinion that the Russians should usually round down.

Glory is fleeting, but obscurity is forever.
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Last edit: 8 years 5 months ago by Mark-McG.

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8 years 5 months ago #3649 by TheMP
Replied by TheMP on topic Making the Russians better
Yes Russian fire was considered poor. Not just because of markmanship, but also because of a lot of poor craftsmanship in the making of Russian muskets coupled with irregular boring from factory to factory.

There was also something akin to battalion mass using their column formation.

So, coupled with the 'ignore 1 flag', a battalion mass would be useful in keeping cards. That then might be worth the avoidance of 5 block units. I personally have no data of what the keeping of cards works out as a numerical measurement in result stats, but I could see in scenarios I have already played where that would have been a great help.

Also, Russian infantry formations were not numerically the size of Austrian, whether talking of battalion, brigade or even corps sized. That in itself would steer me away from 5 block Russian infantry, let alone their ignoring of a banner to boot. You'd never shift them :-)

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2 years 10 months ago #7625 by Rasputinthe2nd
Sorry to necro a an thread, but maybe this will be useful to someone in future.

I've been playing with my own modified mother russia role and infantry size and wanted to share.

I'll start with the rules I use and then get into the reasoning.

Modifications:
Line infantry start at 4 strength.
Line infantry suffer a -1 die to ranged fire (cumulative with rounding down when moving).
Light infantry start at 4 strength.
Light infantry do not receive a +1 modifier to ranged fire.
During Mother Russia roll, for each infantry symbol rolled, add a marker to a Line infantry unit. That unit receives a +1 modifier to all melee combat. (You can use a paper strength marker if you like.)
During Mother Russia roll, for each flag symbol rolled, add a marker to a Light infantry unit. That unit received a +1 modifier to all ranged combat.
OR Use flags for any other action (same as the regular Mother Russia rules).

Reasoning:
As other have stated, Russian ranged fire was bad. They were rarely drilled in musketry, and the quality of their muskets was poor. When the Prussians did a test of Russian muskets, they were on average 1/3 less accurate than other nations' muskets. For this reason, Russian Line and Light infantry receive a minus one to their ranged fire compared to the base rules. This is partially compensated with larger unit sizes.
The base rules imply the Russians often entered combat understrength. While this may be true, this was true of all Napoleonic armies. Many units on campaign were well beneath paper strength at the time of their major clashes. Can anyone claim with a straight face that the French were at full strength at Borodino? Yet only the Russians are penalized with small unit sizes among their bread and butter units. Scenario design often implicitly takes this into account by reducing the number of units on the field, and I think the Russians deserve this consideration too. Furthermore, a unit with only 3 blocks is simply incapable of attacking certain terrain. A Russian Line with 3 blocks will roll one die against a town in melee combat, whereas a full strength French Line will roll 3, despite both formations being famed for bayonet attacks. For this reason, Russian infantry start at 4 strength.
The Russians were fond of their bayonet attacks, and some units performed better than others. For this reason, the Mother Russia roll can give certain Russian Line a +1 to melee combat.
Russian light infantry were not as well regarded as their counterparts in other armies, but certain units were considered excellent skirmishers, particularly towards the end of the Napoleonic era. For this reason, the Mother Russia roll can give certain Russian Light a +1 to ranged attacks.

Observations from my play:
With 4 blocks, the Russian infantry is MUCH less likely to be wiped out in a single roll, and is capable of assaulting terrain with an appreciable number of dice.
The Russian Line is hindered by the -1 ranged modifier, and has an incentive to close to bayonet range, which is historical.
The Russian Light performs a little worse than their counterparts in other armies, but is still capable of dishing out 4-5 dice in ranged combat, depending on the Mother Russia roll.
Russian Line and Light that receive their Mother Russia bonuses will be some of the best units in the game in melee combat, compared to other nations, because they retain the ability to ignore one flag. In my experience this doesn't alter the balance too much, as the Mother Russia roll will only give this bonus to 2-3 units per scenario.
Charging full strength Russian infantry is now something to be feared!

Thanks, let me know our thoughts.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Hawkmoon, ANDRE

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2 years 10 months ago #7626 by Mark-McG
Replied by Mark-McG on topic Making the Russians better
I think this is pretty good actually. 

Some queries
1. Russian infantry normally round up. I get the sense you suggest they normally round down. 
2. Something I will check given a chance, but how many "extra" blocks are there in the expansion? Is there enough blocks to fit out all Russian Line & Light with 4 blocks per unit?

 

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2 years 10 months ago #7627 by Rasputinthe2nd

I think this is pretty good actually. 

Some queries
1. Russian infantry normally round up. I get the sense you suggest they normally round down. 
2. Something I will check given a chance, but how many "extra" blocks are there in the expansion? Is there enough blocks to fit out all Russian Line & Light with 4 blocks per unit?


 
Whoops! Yes, the Russians should round UP as per the usual rules. Nice catch, Mark. I’ve been playing Austrian scenarios lately and just got used to rounding down. However I remember I did play the Russians with round up rules and it balanced out well.

Re: number of blocks, the base game provides some extras for Mother Russia rolls, but not for all units at once. If I recall correctly, you might end up short 3 line and 2 light, depending on the scenario. I used a couple of spare Russian blocks to fill out the units, and I haven’t played a scenario yet where I ran out, but that is something to consider. If playing casually, a small coin or something could fill out the unit.

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2 years 10 months ago - 2 years 10 months ago #7628 by Mark-McG
Replied by Mark-McG on topic Making the Russians better
so in answer to the block question

Russian Line
11 units (3 strength) + 6 Mother Russia blocks + 4 Spares 
= 10 4 strength LN units, which is enough to play all the scenarios except 602 (Davout at Austerlitz)

Russian Light
6 units (3 strength) + 3 Mother Russia Blocks +2 Spares
= 5 four strength LT units, enough for all but 3 scenarios, one of them being LGB Austerlitz.

1 blank block..  which could used, or alternatively, there are 2 Militia units that could be used as extra blocks, since Militia are rarely used.

Incidentally, Militia is awkward in this variant rule, since it fires 1 die per block, making their fire better than Russian Line (which it often is anyway), but if Russian Line musketry is being penalised, it seems strange that Russian Militia musketry is not.

Glory is fleeting, but obscurity is forever.
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Last edit: 2 years 10 months ago by Mark-McG.

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2 years 10 months ago #7629 by Rasputinthe2nd

so in answer to the block question

Russian Line
11 units (3 strength) + 6 Mother Russia blocks + 4 Spares 
= 10 4 strength LN units, which is enough to play all the scenarios except 602 (Davout at Austerlitz)

Russian Light
6 units (3 strength) + 3 Mother Russia Blocks +2 Spares
= 5 four strength LT units, enough for all but 3 scenarios, one of them being LGB Austerlitz.

1 blank block..  which could used, or alternatively, there are 2 Militia units that could be used as extra blocks, since Militia are rarely used.

Incidentally, Militia is awkward in this variant rule, since it fires 1 die per block, making their fire better than Russian Line (which it often is anyway), but if Russian Line musketry is being penalised, it seems strange that Russian Militia musketry is not.
Re: militia, just for consistency, I would be tempted to give them a -1 ranged combat modifier as well. Interestingly, in the base game rules, militia will also fire with more dice than a base 3 strength line infantry. As you mentioned, militia don’t appear in many scenarios, so hopefully the result will not be too unbalanced. Grenadier and guard infantry should probably keep the base rules (no penalties) reflecting their better training and equipment.

I have played 4 scenarios with these rules, far too few to comment on how they affect balance. Thankfully, the C&C games are not terribly concerned about balance, which in my opinion is a strength. If playing with house rules, one should always play both sides of a scenario (when possible) to overcome any resulting balance issues. My goal here was mostly to add some more historical flavor, without completely overhauling the Mother Russia roll. 

Excellent info re: the number of blocks! I did notice my Epics expansion has some Russian Line which can help fill out Russian scenarios.

Thanks for the feedback Mark, I appreciate it.
The following user(s) said Thank You: ANDRE

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2 years 7 months ago #7750 by stephent
Replied by stephent on topic Making the Russians better
One question: is the adjustment to strengthen Russian infantry to make the Russian side more historically accurate, or also to alter play balance in favour of the Russians? Increasing the strength of the Russian infantry as outlined above does make the game more historically accurate but would also tilt each scenario relatively in favour of Russians. I wonder whether something needs to be removed from the Russians to maintain play balance e.g. remove infantry’s ability to ignore flag? Thoughts?
 

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2 years 7 months ago #7751 by Waterloo-Simon
We have tried a couple of games with new rules and they work well. We did Epic Friedland and although French won the Russians put up a more spirited fight. The reduction of the Russian line firing makes a difference and encourages them to fight hand to hand. The Russian light are as good as the French light and are quite a force now. Overall we thought it worked really well.

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