OT2022 Quarter Finals

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1 year 10 months ago #4424 by Mark-McG
Replied by Mark-McG on topic OT2022 Quarter Finals

No effect on this pair of battles but I was curious. Rare to find an unanswered question after all these years. This is an old ruling from RB cross-quoted from CSW. Rampaging rolls are simultaneous, so it is possible to have a drawn battle (I guess in tournament circumstances we could always split it on block count if necessary). I've never come across this situation before and from RB's response it seems he never had either. 

boardgamegeek.com/thread/313453/article/2367032#2367032

Brent.

I've recorded it as 8-8. and the pair of matches has a score of 16-12, giving Brent the win for the Quarter Final.

an unusual result..

"I will either find a way, or make one."
attrib to Hannibal Barca

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1 year 10 months ago - 1 year 10 months ago #4425 by Kartigan
Replied by Kartigan on topic OT2022 Quarter Finals
A very fun and unusual result.

For those curious, Borg's comments actually contradict the rulebook (page 15), which plainly states that the player that triggered the Elephant's Rampage determines the order in which Rampage Rolls are made and that VBs are awarded as they happen, so the player who caused the Rampage would win (because they would make their opponent make rampage checks first).

This can also matter in other situations, for example determining if leaders have retreat paths available if their unit is eliminated.

The only way Elephants can cause a tie is if their retreat path is blocked by units from each side. In this case the Elephants inflict hits on both units simultaneously, and this could cause a draw.
Last edit: 1 year 10 months ago by Kartigan.

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1 year 10 months ago - 1 year 10 months ago #4426 by BrentS
Replied by BrentS on topic OT2022 Quarter Finals
I'm not sure that it is clear from the RAW on page 15 of the 3rd Ed rulebook.


"An elephant, when it retreats, goes on a Rampage before it is moved back. All units and any leaders who are alone in adjacent hexes (friend and foe) must check to see if they are trampled. (This can include the attacker who prompted the Rampage!) Roll two dice for each adjacent hex with a unit or a lone leader. During a rampage, your opponent rolls for hits on your units, and you roll for hits on his units. A hit is scored when the symbol rolled matches the unit type. A leader helmet will eliminate a lone leader. If the leader is not hit on the rampage roll he must evade. All other symbols are ignored."

Obviously you have to roll separately and consecutively, but the rules here say nothing about the outcomes occurring sequentially. I think if RB has clarified that it's simultaneous then that's the precedent.....which I'll remember to apply in another 15 years when this happens again :)

Brent.
Last edit: 1 year 10 months ago by BrentS.

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1 year 10 months ago #4427 by Kartigan
Replied by Kartigan on topic OT2022 Quarter Finals
I think it is crystal clear from the RAW on page 15 what is supposed to happen.  This is a direct quote from the rulebook:

PLAY NOTE: Since scenarios end the instant the final Victory Banner is gained, a situation when an Elephant rampages or retreats could set up a victory dilemma, because it is possible that units from both sides are eliminated during a Rampage or an elephant retreat. The order of elephant rampage rolls is determined by the player that caused the Rampage. Resolve the Rampage die rolls, and award any Victory Banners one at a time for units eliminated by the Rampage. Using this procedure, a Rampage cannot cause a draw. When an elephant’s retreat path is blocked by units from both sides, remove all retreat losses at the same time and award any Banners which may occur as a result of the losses. If both sides gain a final Victory Banner as a result of these loses, the battle ends in a draw.

I don't know this, but my assumption is that the rulebook was updated sometime between now and 2008 or whenever it was that RB gave that answer in the BGG thread.  I would just stick to the rulebook, but each is of course free to play their own way.

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1 year 10 months ago #4428 by BrentS
Replied by BrentS on topic OT2022 Quarter Finals
Ah yes, thanks. Pays to read the whole rulebook :) Yes, that would have been updated since his ruling....possibly in response to the question raised at the time.

Each is certainly free to play their own way but not in a tournament setting. When that comes up again (the next blue moon) we now know.

Brent.

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1 year 10 months ago - 1 year 10 months ago #4429 by Marco
Replied by Marco on topic OT2022 Quarter Finals
Marco - Romans 8 - 29 blocks
Mark McG - Carthaginians 6 - 26 blocks

Play started on the left and center, with the Romans advancing troops while the Carths showered missile fire. Both sides developed their flanks, and then a Roman MFM lead to a lucky 2 block hit on the Carths HI on the right. This was to prove consequential later. The Romans attacked the left side of the Carth center, gaining a hill but at heavy cost. The Carths then brought their E into play, running over a hill to eliminate two MIs. Hasdrubal himself brought his HI out of the camp to take out a Roman AUX, but was then repulsed and heavily damaged by a MI. The Romans responded with HI and MI, but failed to eliminate the E, which rampaged, trampled units on both sides, and then killed the Roman HI on the battle back. The score was now 4-0 and the Carths were looking good, but the Romans continued their assault. They killed the Carthaginians HI, Hasdrubal, and took the camp, bringing the score to 4-3. Lucky LDR LC1 roll! Again the Carths advanced their E to attack a back row MC, which barely survived. Finally a MED Troops command by the Romans eliminated the E and an AUX, but cost them a MI. Score was now 5-5. The Carths then attacked from the left, bringing in a MC to finish off a one block MI, but a First Strike and a lucky three hit roll thwarted their plans. The Carths finished off the MI with a LDR mounted LC, but this turn proved to be a game changing moment, bringing the score to 6-6 and swinging the momentum to the Romans. Another turn with no effect on either side, and then the Romans used a MED Troop command to kill an AUX on a hill and finish off the remaining HI (which had been damaged by archers during the opening moves) with a desperate MC attack. Great game with really fun Elephant attacking, rampaging, and trampling. Thanks Mark McG!

Marco - Carthaginians 8 - 22 blocks
Mark McG - Romans 4 - 35 blocks

The Romans began with a strong MED Troops command, advancing not only MI but also taking up an aggressive position with their MC on the right. Unfortunately this allowed the Carths to Double Time their right wing into play, advancing their all important WARS three hexes. Both MCs took a hit as they evaded. Both sides then commenced multiple turn back and forth missile fire, with no effect whatsoever, until a final double green hit on a Carth AUX in the center. Clearly the archers had all stayed up late the night before. A fantastic 5/5 Sparticus command by the Romans allowed them to advance MI against the Carth HI on the right camp, heavily damaging it but costing them one MI. A Carth Line Command brought many units out from the center and right flank into play, taking another Roman MI. A second Roman MED Troops command brought MI and MCs on the right into action, gaining an AUX banner but losing a MC. The score was now 3-1 Carths, with the Roman right scattered and G. Scipio on a one block LI on the back row. Precarious positions indeed for the Romans, but the Carths were mostly out of range. Mostly but not entirely, because the one block WAR could still reach. The Carths used a LDR Any command to boldly run the WAR forward, taking out another MI but then falling to a beautifully timed First Strike, taking the score to 4-2 Carths. Hats off to Mark McG for his restraint in holding the FS until that critical moment; he could have used it before. More action on the right brought a banner to each side, and the score to 5-3. With numerous heavily damaged units, the Carths played the Rally which they had been dealt, and rolled an amazing 5/5. This rallied and activated the Carth MI and HI, which gained them two more banners and evaded the Roman no-name LDR off the field. At 7-3 Carths this ended the match, but the intrepid commanders agreed to finish the game anyway. The Romans Double Timed from the center and left to take a camp, but gained no other banners. The Carths finally brought their MI/LDR forward on the right to finish off the one block LI and end the game. 


 

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Last edit: 1 year 10 months ago by Marco.

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1 year 10 months ago - 1 year 10 months ago #4430 by Cap
Replied by Cap on topic OT2022 Quarter Finals
Cap vs Kartigan
GAME 2

Cap (Rome)               8
Kartigan (Carthage)  3


This is another extremely аsymmetrical scenario in which a well packed and concentrated heavy Roman army faces a scattered and lighter Carthaginian troops, ready to be defeated in detail. Even my magician skills couldn't help me avoid the defeat.
My starting hand (Move-fire-move; Darken the sky; Line command) allowed me to use one of Napoleon's trademarks: establish a Grand battery in the centre to prepare the camps for a melee assault (Move-fire-move + Darken the sky) while having a Plan B - extract the lights behind the medium and heavies (with Line command), once Kartigan decides to charge them in melee. After turn 2, the two Carthaginian auxilias, occupying the hills were shot where they stood. Kartigan decided to ignore rolled flags, not retreating and instead bringing his other light troops in range to counter the Roman Grand battery. After the hills were vacated, he exploded with a mass cavalry charge with two light cav, one med cav, and the elephants. The mounted passed the hills and charged straight into the Roman lights. The result was two Roman auxilias smashed, two Roman lights and two Roman mediums heavily damaged (the elephants were devastating) with all mounted Carthaginians forced into a retreat by battle back. I immediately executed Plan B and pulled back the shattered lights, replacing them with medium and heavy troops, leaving only the full health light unit to finish off the retired elephants on the hill. The result was now just 3 to 2 for the Romans, but the Carthaginian position was grim - even more scattered army with weakened centre, facing the incoming Roman concentrated juggernaut, and with no prospects of a viable counterattack. It took me 3 turns to bust-open all three camps, collecting the necessary amount of victory banners.

NOTE: This battle produced some rules discussions as well. How many dice should one roll while a medium infantry is battling out of a camp and uphill at the same time? We decided that it should still be two dice (starting 4, minus 1 for battling out of the camp, equals 3, but uphill means max 2 dice (without card modifiers)). The hesitation was for max 2 dice uphill and minus 1 for battling out of camp, equals 1 die. If anyone has an insight, please share it with us!

Big thanks to Kartigan for his time schedule flexibility. And "Bravo!" for stopping my battle-winning spree by beating me in our first game of the quarter-finals. 

 

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Last edit: 1 year 10 months ago by Cap.

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1 year 9 months ago #4440 by Mark-McG
Replied by Mark-McG on topic OT2022 Quarter Finals

"I will either find a way, or make one."
attrib to Hannibal Barca

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