Goliath Sd.Kfz. 302 & Sd.Kfz. 303

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1 year 2 months ago #1189 by pino
Hello to everyone,
during some readings about German advanced weapons, I've found this interesting (at least for me!) vehicles: the Sd.Kfz 302 Goliath, a wire guided small tank filled with explosive.
It was projected mainly for open the way through minefields and razorwire but, during the days of operation Overlord, the Germans used a little numbers of Goliath against the Allied landing forces on the beach of Normandy (with very scarce results).
I'm thinking to introduce the Goliath as a new unit or as a operational card for Engineers squads.
I really appreciate your point of view about the idea.
 
 

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1 year 1 month ago #1190 by alecrespi
Nice idea, I think it would perfectly fit on an OP card.

This my first draft.
 
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    1 year 1 month ago #1192 by JVHillegas-Elting
    I like the idea! I like the photo you chose for the card, because it shows the relative scale of the thing.

    I do have some questions . . .

    Looks like the Goliath has 1 Movement Point, which appropriately reflects its very slow max speed (just 3.7 mph). Consulting Wikipedia and finding that it it was largely ineffective in many ways, when it comes to speed/movement, am I correct in interpreting this MV value to mean the vehicle could not enter any hex requiring more than 1 Movement Point?

    Its thin armor (5 mm) puts it into the "Fragile" category relative to the consolidated unit stats spreadsheet.

    Does the vehicle move on its own, or does the Engineer squad need to take an action to move it?

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    1 year 1 month ago - 1 year 1 month ago #1197 by alecrespi
    Initially I had thought only of the slowness of the vehicle without thinking about the costs of moving on other terrains...
    Would it be too unrealistic to treat them as 1-hex movement regardless of terrain cost?
    Otherwise to make it "playable" we would have to increase the speed to at least 2?

    The "Fragile" trait is perfect!

    Maybe making it move autonomously would be wrong, but I'd like to avoid fatiguing an engineer squad to make it do something... I'm conflicted.

    Another point on this: given the weight and size, would it perhaps be more correct to have them transported by a truck or a halftrack (rather than carried "by hand" by an engineer squad)?


     
    Last edit: 1 year 1 month ago by alecrespi.

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    1 year 1 month ago #1198 by pino
    Hello,
    the fragile trait reflex perfectly the low armour level of the Goliath.
    For the movement i think that could be  appropriate a value of 2, without necessity of terrain special rule. 
    The Goliath was projected to clear minefield or razorwire obstacle so, in my opinion, the area attackof 4 is OK.
    I really linea the idea of a Goliath transporter (halftrack or Truck) insteadof a "handcarried" figure.

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    1 year 1 month ago #1199 by JVHillegas-Elting
    I had the following typed-up before Pino posted his latest . . .

    Good points that got me thinking . . .

    Possibility 1: Historically, the vehicle was too heavy for people just to carry it. The game mechanic as expressed in the Op Card could be to state that the Engineering squad functionally has an embedded (and invisible) Kettenkrad they use to get the Goliath to a point where they want to start using the wire-guided control. This would require just a bit of re-phrasing of the card but not the introduction of an entirely new unit (the prime mover). The limbering/un-limbering could just be reflected by the "spend 2 movement points" statement.

    Possibility 2: Having to limber/un-limber the unit from a truck or half-track introduces game-mechanical considerations in terms of how a player would use it, requiring at least one action, possibly two, if we follow the standard ToI towing rules. Given the Goliath's limited movement, this would put the truck or half-track in danger. Would putting these vehicles in such danger be worth the effort to place the fragile, slow-moving Goliath anywhere near a location where the German player would have any chance of it being successful?

    Possibility 3: It appears that this vehicle had an operational range of nearly a mile on-road, and about a half-mile off-road. Depends on the intended scale of a particular scenario, but maybe it's worth it just to allow the German player to place the unit directly on the map somewhere, and then send it off, one hex at a time, toward its destination (that is, do away with the Engineer squad having to place it, and with the truck/half-track towing).

    Regarding Movement Points, I find myself leaning toward agreeing that the unit can move one hex at maximum, no matter what the terrain type is, except for swamps, rivers, ponds, lakes, etc. That would at least increase its potential utility in game terms.

    Anyway, some initial thoughts!

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    1 year 1 month ago #1200 by alecrespi
    Option 1: (embedded/invisible Kettenkrad) simple, clear and perfectly in line with the style of the other operational cards.

    Option 2: (limber/un-limber) excessively complex for my tastes and perhaps not very effective. You would end up never using this feature.

    Option 3: (free deployment on the map) Interesting idea. What if we had it placed at "Normal range with LoS" from an engineer unit? It seems likely to me that without engineers the Goliath can no longer be used (like Deomolition squads).

    The 1 hex movement, excluding "water ones", sounds good to me.

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