GG03 Waterloo Epic - All In One (18 June 1815)

1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 Rating 4.00 (5 Votes)
 48 %
Record a victory for BOTTOM ARMY  52 %
Total plays 46 - Last reported by GG on 2021-12-17 23:01:51

Historical Background
Napoleon retained his strategic brilliance, placing his army squarely between the Prussian and Anglo-Allied armies on June 16th. His tactical genius was fading. He allowed an entire corps to countermarch aimlessly on the 16th, deny him the opportunity for a decisive victory either at Ligny or Quatre Bras. Instead, at the end of the day the beaten Prussians escaped at Ligny and Wellington still held the crossroads at Quatre Bras. On the 17th Napoleon turned his main strength towards the British, after detaching Grouchy with two corps to pursue the retreating Prussians and prevent them from uniting with Wellington. A massive storm drenched the area on the 17th as Napoleon advanced upon the Anglo-Allied army that was deploying for battle in front of Mount Saint Jean. The 18th dawned clear, but the rain-soaked ground still made maneuvering cavalry and artillery difficult, so Napoleon delayed the start of the battle, waiting for the ground to dry. Wellington fielded an Anglo-Allied army of 50,000 infantry, 11,000 cavalry and 150 guns. In front of his line, there were three strong positions; the château of Hougoumont, the hamlet of Papelotte and the farmhouse and orchards of La Haye Sainte. Many of his veteran regiments from Spain had been sent to Canada and the United States to fight the Americans. Napoleon’s army consisted of 48,000 infantry, 14,000 cavalry and 250 guns. Many of these troops were veterans of at least one campaign. It was about 11AM before Napoleon gave battle with artillery salvoes and ordered the initial assault against Hougoumont. The battle of Waterloo is well documented, and rather than skim through the account, it is recommended that players take advantage of the numerous sources available and enjoy reading about this epic struggle between two of the greatest commanders in history.
The stage is set. The battle lines are drawn and you are in command. Can you change history?

 

 

Battle Notes


Allied Army *
Commander: Wellington
6 Command Cards
3 Tactician Cards then draw 2 at the first arrival of the Prussians and 1 at the second arrival of the Prussians.
* The brown units represent the Nassau, Brunswick, Hanover and Dutch units. Use the brown blocks and apply all Portuguese rules for those Allied troops with one exception: The brown LN retreats 2 hexes for each flag.

 


French Army
Commander :Napoleon
6 Command Cards
4 Tactician Cards
Move First

  


Victory
15 Banners


Special Rules

  • The 3 buildings with blue borders are each 1 Temporary Victory Banners Objective hexes (Turn Start) for the French player.
  • Those 3 buildings also form a Temporary Majority Victory Banners Objective Hexes (Turn Start) worth 1 banner for the Allied player.
  • Prussian Reinforcements: The Allies player rolls 1 die at the start of each of his turn. If no Flag symbol, the timeline for the Prussian arrival increases by 1 (use any markers). When the timeline reaches 7 and 9, the Prussian reinforcements arrives. The Allies player must setup the Prussians units in any of the grey marked hexes. If not enough room or by choice, the extra units are lost. The Prussians can then be ordered immediately using command cards.
    At 7 the Prussians consists of 3x LN + 2x LT + 2x LC + 1x LNCR + 2 Leaders (Blücher & Bülow) + 2 Iron Will Markers
    At 9 the Prussians consists of 3x RI + 1x GR + 1x HC + 1x HA + 1 Leader (Ziethen) + 1 Iron Will Marker

Tags: Banners: 15, Army: Allies, Army: French, Unofficial, Special Rule: Epic

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GG's Avatar
GG replied the topic: #7668 4 months 13 hours ago
Hello,
TY to be interested in this scenario.
For me I'm not sure to understand the first part of your question (sorry)?
The Prussians just play NORMALLY as soon they are arrive. All normal rules then apply.
The only point is if there is not enough ROOM (entry hex free) the moment they arrive: the extra units are lost!
Please only read the ACTUAL special rules IN the scenario. The discussions here may only be ideas!
(If any difference with the VASSAL rules, the rules HERE are the one updated). 
Regards - GG
ANDRE replied the topic: #7667 4 months 23 hours ago
While reading the thread, I'm a little confused, the Prussians go to free cells if they are busy, you can withdraw them in the next moves, although the rules say that if there is no space, then the units can no longer appear in the game, what will be the correct rule. We have always played who could not now enter the free cages that is lost forever.
GG's Avatar
GG replied the topic: #7492 6 months 2 weeks ago
Hello,
Once again Gentlemen I completely disagree with the solution of 2 different number of banners whether for this scenario or for any other.
This system is no beautiful in my eyes and had never been used in any official scenario. On the other hand many other "traditional" way to "fix" a scenario exist. As I said: I'm really not sure this scenario is still unbalanced (I recently changed some rules in favor of the allies) and many other tries must be done.
I think the ideal for a scenario is to stand between 50% and 60% in favor of the historical winner. OK it's still not the case for this one but we need to give the new rule time to change the stats. If it was to stay this way after a delay, I could (for example) give the allies 1 VP for EACH ONE of the famous 3 objective buildings (instead of the actual 1VP for the majority). For sure you are free to play it with any house rule at home but on my side I will never put 2 different number of banners to reach in any of my scenarios. Keep on reporting the sessions.
Best regards Generals - GG
Hawkmoon's Avatar
Hawkmoon replied the topic: #7491 6 months 2 weeks ago
Very interesting conversation indeed !
The arrival of the Prussians, the time we've been playing this map, gave an opportunity for the French side to score banners and win the game easily maybe because Prussians were weak against complete french units.
I like the idea of different number banners for each side.
Vive l'Empereur !
Vive la France !
Mark-McG's Avatar
Mark-McG replied the topic: #7489 6 months 3 weeks ago


1) Regarding Waterloo Epic, the game does not achieve G's goal of a likely Coalition victory (55%-60%).  My "fix" was to suggest that Prussian losses should not count against the Allies.  If this seems too generous, I simply am proposing some incentive for the French player to engage the Prussians.  

I would say this is something the Allied player needs to address, that the Prussians be sufficiently aggressive to force the French to engage them.

The game is unbalanced in favor of the French as it stands.

2) Regarding CCNapoleonics, the simple solution to many scenarios is to each side have different Banner targets.  Yes, for example, Victoria, a 71% French victory, should increase the flags needed by the French to win.  For example, increase the French target to 10 or 11 banners and keep the Coalition at 9 banners.

3) Extra banners for elite or guard units are also an excellent idea.  Note that only in 1 or my 3 Waterloo Epic plays did the OG become engaged, and it took a "Call Up the Reserves" Tacticians' card to make that happen.

Some while ago I proposed a bidding system that could be used to re-balance scenarios, and without re-iterating that, my original concept was to give the unfavoured side banners at start, but it would work equally well (and perhaps be better) by adding Banners to the favoured side equivalent to the bid.

So as an example, this scenario is to 15 banners. If a side bids 2 banners to play the Allies, then they would have to score 2 extra banners (17 in total).

I've found in Waterloo scenarios, I tend to draw the OG towards La Haye Sainte for the assault. They hit pretty hard with Forced March or Bayonet Charge.
GG's Avatar
GG replied the topic: #7488 6 months 3 weeks ago
Hello Generals!
First TY to play & appreciate this scenario.
Be very full of care: To judge the balance of a scenario needs many many tests! Some for example keep on making the Prussians arriving from the bottom side and get trapped by the French for a massacre! For me I use to win with the Prussians while refusing sometimes to enter all the reinforcements etc. So please keep on testing WITH DIFFERENT OPPONENTS! Plus in case (and after more tests with different players) the French seems always still too strong: I hate the solution of different VP goals but I still have in reserve some other classical solution to fix that. For example the 3 famous building hexes can also become EACH 1VP for the Allies (instead of only 1VP for the majority) etc.
Vive la Republique! Guillaume Gleize
Chasseurs a Cheval de la Garde Imperiale
sharpe1812's Avatar
sharpe1812 replied the topic: #7487 6 months 3 weeks ago
Hi Mark,
Thanks for the reply.

1) Regarding Waterloo Epic, the game does not achieve G's goal of a likely Coalition victory (55%-60%).  My "fix" was to suggest that Prussian losses should not count against the Allies.  If this seems too generous, I simply am proposing some incentive for the French player to engage the Prussians.  That could take many forms.  It could be as I proposed - French earn 3 permanent banners upon eliminating 5 Prussian units (in your counter the Coalition would be giving up 11 units to avoid this!) or maybe 1 banner for every two Prussian losses.  If separate Banner totals were agreed upon, Coalition morale could even be increased upon the entry of Prussian reinforcements.  The possibilities are many.

The game is unbalanced in favor of the French as it stands.

2) Regarding CCNapoleonics, the simple solution to many scenarios is to each side have different Banner targets.  Yes, for example, Victoria, a 71% French victory, should increase the flags needed by the French to win.  For example, increase the French target to 10 or 11 banners and keep the Coalition at 9 banners.

3) Extra banners for elite or guard units are also an excellent idea.  Note that only in 1 or my 3 Waterloo Epic plays did the OG become engaged, and it took a "Call Up the Reserves" Tacticians' card to make that happen.
Mark-McG's Avatar
Mark-McG replied the topic: #7486 6 months 3 weeks ago

Game does illustrate one important fact about CCNappy: The relic from "Battle Cry" of the same VP target for both sides is problematic. Scenarios like this plus historical Allied wins like Victoria and Albuera lean towards the French more than they should.

It is simply time to recognize the obvious: Each side needs a separate "Demoralization (flag) target."

PS. If the typical victory target of 15 flags for both sides is kept, maybe Prussian losses should not be counted in the total or don't include Prussian losses and give the French a 3 permanent banner bonus when they destory 5 Prussian units???

isn't the 15 banners the demoralisation target?
or is the key word ' separate' , meaning different (e.g. 15 for the Allies, 17 for the French?

I can't think why the Prussians should count for less or more, and my understanding is that the Anglo-Allies had even less idea of what the Prussians were doing than the French. What you propose would be a reason to hold the Prussians off the map, or only commit 4 units.

I do think that Guard units should be worth 2 banners, and Old Guard 3 banners. Losing these units had a very strong morale effect on the army.
Conversely, militia should be worthless in terms of banners (as they generally are on the battlefield).
sharpe1812's Avatar
sharpe1812 replied the topic: #7484 6 months 3 weeks ago
I do like different retreat directions for "Reinforcing units."  I suggest though that it either be NE or E for the Prussians, their nominal LOC.
sharpe1812's Avatar
sharpe1812 replied the topic: #7483 6 months 3 weeks ago
I like how Guillaume has created additional scenarios that upgrade battles in the CCNappy series. With his EPIC Waterloo, not only can you fight the battle on a larger scale but also the scenario includes Prussian reinforcements.

I have so far played the scenario twice: 1) 15-3 French win (though many depleted Fr Inf units, 2) 15-11 French victory that with one more turn could have become a great Allied comeback.

Game does illustrate one important fact about CCNappy: The relic from "Battle Cry" of the same VP target for both sides is problematic. Scenarios like this plus historical Allied wins like Victoria and Albuera lean towards the French more than they should.

It is simply time to recognize the obvious: Each side needs a separate "Demoralization (flag) target."

PS. If the typical victory target of 15 flags for both sides is kept, maybe Prussian losses should not be counted in the total or don't include Prussian losses and give the French a 3 permanent banner bonus when they destory 5 Prussian units???
GG's Avatar
GG replied the topic: #7322 10 months 1 day ago
The Allies now also start with 6 Command cards - GG
GG's Avatar
GG replied the topic: #7321 10 months 2 days ago
OK - I changed a little bit the conditions of victory in favor of the allies - Check the second special rule - Plus the Allies now also stat with 6 Cdt cards
GG's Avatar
GG replied the topic: #7303 10 months 1 week ago
Sorry I don't agree: My proposition is strong toward the allies: It's rare when the French capture the 3 towns and the average in my numerous testing is 1 town captured > So the average will be 1 or 2 new points for the allies. Plus you must not take the example of your single battle because I experienced many battles (around 20) who were completely different: Even when losing, the Allies used to have a close score. So sorry but for the moment I stick to this new town points for the Allies but will wait to contact Mark.
Mark-McG's Avatar
Mark-McG replied the topic: #7302 10 months 1 week ago

mmm I'm more in favor of a simpler and classical one like:
• Hougoumont, La Haye Sainte and Papelotte (with blue border) are each one Temporary Victory Banners Turn Start for ANY SIDE that occupy them.

 
that would have made no difference to the outcome of our game, and changed the score to 15-13 French win.
Moreover, this kind of rule induces a 2 banner shift in scores, which would favour the French I think, though probably not significantly in this instance.

The Guard rule would have changed the score 1 in favour of the Allis in our play, but whether it would change the OG play is debatable.
The Prussian retreat rule would have saved the Allies 1 banner.
GG's Avatar
GG replied the topic: #7300 10 months 1 week ago
mmm I'm more in favor of a simpler and classical one like:
• Hougoumont, La Haye Sainte and Papelotte (with blue border) are each one Temporary Victory Banners Turn Start for ANY SIDE that occupy them.
I can easily change it here for a try but any change on Vassal is more complicated as I must ask to Mark Benson - And I don't like to disturb him if I ever change again in 10 days LOL
GG
Mark-McG's Avatar
Mark-McG replied the topic: #7299 10 months 1 week ago
my suggestions are;

Extra Special Rules
• Guards count as 2 banners, Old Guard count as 3 banners
• Prussian retreat at 60 degree angle toward NE corner
GG's Avatar
GG replied the topic: #7298 10 months 1 week ago
TY for the nice report!
I'm gonna check from now this French victory 60% tendency because I would prefer around 50/50 or an Allied 60% to stick with history.
Best regards General - GG
Mark-McG's Avatar
Mark-McG replied the topic: #7295 10 months 1 week ago
Played with 4 players on VASSAL today.

French had a good start, pressing on the Right flank, and had a miraculous die roll vs the Brit LT that ventured out of Hougomont in the woods. French took an early lead of 8-1, based primarily on taking Papelotte from the Nassau troops.

A bayonet charge up the centre around La Haye Sainte stretched this to 9-1 with a fantastic close combat roll, but here the French luck ran out. A Rifle Light in Hougomont was unhittable, and after 2 flag rolls on the reinforcements, the Prussian arrival was imminent. The British counter attack in the centre pushed back the charge, and took 2 banners. French pushed again, taking 2 more banners and La Haye Sainte. Score stands at 11-3.

Then the Prussians arrived, and despite efforts to draw back into defensive positions 4 hexes from the edge, the Prussian cavalry could manage to reach an unsupported artillery and eliminate it. La Haye Sainte was abandoned. From here things went very unluckily for the French, really working to get hits. The right flank managed to eliminate 1 Prussian LC, and knock the LNCR down to 1 block, but Blücher escaped. In the centre, the Leader order put Grenadiers into LHS. On the left, nothing hit and the riposte pushed back the Left. None the less, the Score stood at 13-5 controlling Papelotte & La Haye Sainte, with just 2 banners needed to win.

Bayonet charge on the Right was effective, eliminating a Prussian LT in a single blow, but Búlow got away. Then a 7d combined arms on a Brunswicker LC (2 blocks) managed just a single hit. 14-5.

Zeithen's Prussians arrived. Interspersed with the other Prussians.. that seems odd.
British attack on the Right to relieve Hougomont whilst in the Centre, LHS was lost with both the Grenadiers and DÉrlon being eliminated. 13-8

Again the French attacked on the right, eliminating the Nassau LT in Freihemont (14-8), and 2 French cavalry attacked Orange's HC, eliminating 2 blocks with 13 dice in attacks. Again victory eludes the French by 1 block.

Massive Prussian Forced March of their flank eliminated a French LN, Jacquinot on a double swords, and then a YG. In the Centre, a French HC was surrounded and eliminated. 14-12, and the Allies have managed a 7 banner come back, surviving 2 near defeat experiences.

Final turn, a Cavalry charge on the Left catches Byng and his 1 block LC out with a cavalry forward card. This time no mistake on the 6d attack, and the French win 15-12. Huge comeback for the Allies on what on average should have beena 15-5 defeat. But that's C&C dice for you.
GG's Avatar
GG replied the topic: #7188 1 year 2 days ago
Hello R4mello, TY for playing my scenario!
Yes those were old comments. You know we need sometime many testing sessions before being sure of any balance.
So the scenario is now the most balanced I could do, even if we all think it's unbalanced when we loose on any side (including me) lol!
Enjoy! GG - City of Tours - France
R4mello10 replied the topic: #7187 1 year 2 days ago
Ok thank you! I asked because in one of the comments from the scenario’s designer was actually written that all Prussians should have come in after 9 rounds..probably it was just an older version which has been adapted after some play testing..
Mark-McG's Avatar
Mark-McG replied the topic: #7182 1 year 3 days ago
7
R4mello10 replied the topic: #7181 1 year 3 days ago
Looking forward to play this scenario which looks amazing!! Just one thing I don’t understand..should the first wave of Prussians be coming at 7 or at 9?
GG's Avatar
GG replied the topic: #6578 1 year 8 months ago
TY Ramy for the word! Look the stats: The French side has all his chances ;)
RamyRock's Avatar
RamyRock replied the topic: #6524 1 year 9 months ago
15 British banners vs 8 French Banners (1 for the temporary banner from Papelotte. My first impression is that the Prussians arrive too early. In any case it is a great map, thanks for your work!
GG's Avatar
GG replied the topic: #5881 2 years 10 months ago
TY for the report > Check if you are playing the very last rules of this scenario (as posted on the bottom page 2 of this thread)!
GG

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Sometimes a single battle decides everything and sometimes, too, the slightest circumstance decides the issue of a battle. There is a moment in every battle at which the least manoeuvre is decisive and gives superiority, as one drop of water causes overflow.~Napoleon