MT15 Results

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4 years 7 months ago #3306 by gottoman
Replied by gottoman on topic MT15 Results
I don't think we are going to play game 2 before next Saturday or Sunday. Strongly prefer we decide on the banner count ruling before playing, otherwise the decision could be who wins, vice what is the right decision if the result of game 2 is know. Also, knowing the result of game 1 has some influence in how I play game 2, how conservative or how aggressive I play...

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4 years 7 months ago #3307 by Mark-McG
Replied by Mark-McG on topic MT15 Results
OK, well I'll issue a ruling before then. I need to satisfy myself my recollections are correct in that this is how sudden death has been dealt with before, which may not be easy.

Somosierra was pre-MT6, around March 2012, and that pre-dates the current Yahoo website.
The Ancients one was more recent, and a C3i scenario by recall.

Glory is fleeting, but obscurity is forever.
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4 years 7 months ago #3308 by gottoman
Replied by gottoman on topic MT15 Results
I was under the impression a auto victory gave full banners as I played the battle. You'll see me make a risky attack on the left flank towards the end of the game in an attempt to net two cav banners and the autowin. It was a central part of my strategy. It wasn't until we counted blocks and agreed on the final tally when I realized Michael wasn't in agreement.

I think not giving full banner scores for achieving auto victory is a dangerous precedent, as it can result in all sorts of odd behavior if one side is the "winner" but doesn't receive the "winners" full banner count. One side can encourage the other to win via autovictory with the minimum banner count. Could even be possible on this on for the winner with 7 cav and arty banners to "lose" if the other player was at 8 banners when he "won" via autovictory. A victory with a winner 7 and loser 8 banner count....

Anyhow, just a game, so whatever the decision is, will game on....

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4 years 7 months ago #3310 by mk20336
Replied by mk20336 on topic MT15 Results
Guys,

My 5 cents reg banner count in auto victory. I think it was my first or secon MT. We played Cunaxa, also sudden death scenario (just kill Cyrus). When it was 1:1 Cyrus under my command performed I'll-planned charge, which after lc2d roll by Mark resulted in his death.

Ruling was clear: automatically increase banners for winning side to 7, setting result at 7-1.

Not sure if this is helpful here but just to let you know.

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4 years 7 months ago - 4 years 7 months ago #3311 by Bayernkini
Replied by Bayernkini on topic MT15 Results
As Greg already said, we need a clear ruling before 2nd Semi game, because dependent of the VP ruling, the general game tactic can change distinctly.

I would general not use such special rules scenarios in tournaments, and if, only if the "sudden death" rules are removed,
so the game is played to full VP.

My dice are the hell!
Last edit: 4 years 7 months ago by Bayernkini.

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4 years 7 months ago #3312 by Mark-McG
Replied by Mark-McG on topic MT15 Results
GM Ruling: Full banner score is counted for sudden death wins.

There are several reasons I have come to this view;

1. Precedent. - I recall a similar result for the Somosierra scenario but have no documentation for it. It must be prior to MT6. Moreover, and Michal K points out, this situation did arise in Ancients, and the ruling there was full banner count. At that time I put a post onto the CCA Yahoo Group, which I will reproduce in part here.
There are a few Victory Conditions that have come up here, or could come up. In some cases these relate to block elimination counting, which is only relevant to tournament tiebreaker counts.

Exit Banners (e.g Amphipolis)
www.ccancients.net/Maps/Peloponnesian-Wa...phipolis-422-bc.html

The Victory Banner is permanently gained by the appropriate side upon exit.
Exited blocks do not count as eliminated. Eliminated blocks from exited units do count as eliminated.

Named Leader loss (e.g Cunaxa)
www.ccancients.net/Maps/The-Spartan-Hege...4-cunaxa-401-bc.html

If the named Leader is lost, the winner scores full banner score (in this example, 7). Loser banners and all eliminated blocks are counted normally. Named Leader counts as 1 block.

Area Banners (e.g Sphacteria)
www.ccancients.net/Maps/Peloponnesian-Wa...hacteria-425-bc.html

The Victory Banner in this objective hex is gained when the appropriate side occupies the hex at the start of their turn. The Victory Banner is held and captured only as long as a unit of the appropriate side holds the hex. If the unit vacates the hex for any reason (movement, retreat or elimination) during its own turn or during the opponent’s turn, the banner is immediately lost and placed back in play in its original position on the objective hex.

Turncoat units (e.g. Tanagra, Mycale)
www.ccancients.net/Maps/Peloponnesian-Wa...-tanagra-457-bc.html
www.ccancients.net/Maps/Greco-Persian-Wa...7-mycale-479-bc.html

The Victory Banner for the unit counts as normal. Blocks eliminated are separated by which side owned the units when the blocks were eliminated.

groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ccavassal/co...ations/messages/2765

2. Where there is a sudden death victory condition, if the banner score is discounted for a sudden death win, it discourages the victor to achieve that goal, and opens up a manipulation by a loser to try and minimise the loss. (I'm not saying this has happened here, but I can see it could, and I know people that would opt for a loss minimisation if the option was available).

As to the desirability of sudden death victory conditions in tournaments, I admit they have problems. Generally I avoid them, but in the instance of a Semi-Final it seemed feasible, and to be honest I looked at them, considered 7 losses of 9 to get the sudden death and didn't rate it as a highly likely outcome.

Glory is fleeting, but obscurity is forever.
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4 years 7 months ago #3335 by Mark_T
Replied by Mark_T on topic MT15 Results
Round 1: Mark_T (Allies) - Mark-McG (replacing toddrew) (French): 502 Sorauren - French right early afternoon (28 July 1813)

Allied Player 9 banners won 39 blocks lost
French player 8 banners won 36 blocks lost

Most of this battle was fought on the flanks, where there was some even exchanges in the beginning, but after a while (and some weak moves by the portugese) the french got a strong footing on the left of the hill expanding across the map, but however lacked the last order to finish the game. This forced the action into the middle of the battlefield, and the endgame was very tight with possible victory alternating between french and allies a couple of rounds, with the Allies scoring some lucky shots and securing the win in the end.

Thanks again for the game Mark.
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4 years 7 months ago #3336 by gottoman
Replied by gottoman on topic MT15 Results
Semi Final Game 2 -

Greg O (Allies) - French surrender at 7 banners
Bayernkini (allies) 7 with 31 lost blocks

Slow start with French forming a hard line and the Allies having a handful or bad cards slog through. Saving grace for Allies was very bad French dice that enabled the Allies to make some risky attacks on the flanks to garner enough banners (seven) to seal the win, given Greg had a 3 banner win in the first round. Greg was a bit slow in his play, one it was early in the morning, and two, he had to be very careful paying the fragile Allies against a great player as it was very close in the end (a Grand Man. helped get two 1 block Allied units out of trouble that could have easily given the French 9 banners and the overall win...)

Great play from Michael, he's one of my favorite players!
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4 years 7 months ago #3339 by Bayernkini
Replied by Bayernkini on topic MT15 Results
Gratulation to Greg,
but i have a bad series of hit rating in last games :)
As i always say, not the cards win a game, only the dice (i´ll never forget a MM44 game a few years ago, with 18 dice on a single INF unit, which survived!!!)

My dice are the hell!

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4 years 5 months ago #3470 by plainscape
Replied by plainscape on topic MT15 Results
Semi Final Game 1 - 507 Liebertwolkwitz - morning (14 October 1813)

plainscape (French) - 9 banners (30 blocks lost, 1 recover)
oppi (Allies) - 4 banners (39 blocks lost, 2 recover)

There was about a week in the middle of these two files. So, I barely remember what happened. All I know is that even though I won, I hate Russian Cuirassier and I got really lucky my earlier failed attacks didn't cost me the game. It was really fun and I look forward to playing the second round.
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