Cavalry Breakthrough Rule To Be Aware Of Perhaps?

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5 years 2 months ago #2944 by TheMP
Hello 'men',

Just thought I'd make you aware of a rule that 'hit' me during my last tournament game I played from here last weekend. In all it makes sense but was not something I took into consideration. Perhaps it had never happened before when I had played, but just in case it comes up in your games.

Basically, I was the French in the Russian exp. Game "Village of Borodino". There is a large fordable river that runs along the front of the main part of the Russian army and therefore, as the French, its highly likely it needs to be attacked across. I had 2 x Cavalry Charge cards in my hand and I determined to use them aggressively. I charged some Ruskies across the river and forced them back. My Cavalry unit was in the fordable river and of course I went to follow them up in a cavalry breakthrough.

A third person of some long C&C experience was observing our game and as I moved the attacking cavalry forward in what I thought would be a breakthrough against an enemy battery he told us:

The cavalry can not advance for breakthrough. This was because they were in a river and as per the terrain rules, once entered, the unit can move no further that turn. This apparently includes breakthrough. So beware! It seems obvious when told, but beforehand was something I hadn't thought of.

I would also assume that if CAV forced an enemy to retreat from a clear hex or be eliminated and then the CAV breakthrough into a woods hex then they would then not be allowed to battle afterwards as per woods terrain battle rules prohibiting it THAT turn. As I say, perhaps it all seems obvious when told beforehand, but was certainly something that caught me out. Fortunately, I got away with it as far as the battle went, but was a lesson I won't forget.

I'm off on hols, so will not see any replies, but if there are any, I will catch up in a couple of weeks. See you all soon.

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5 years 2 months ago #2945 by Bayernkini
It was right, a CAV can´t make a advance/breakthrough if they enter any terrain, which stops movement.
This are base game rules.

Now my general experience with "new" players, i played in past years on Vassal.
A lot of these players had a lot of (sometimes shocked) surprises, because of wrong learned/played rules.
And if i request a bit more, the answer is most:
- I played so far only Solo
- I played so far only with 1-2 friends, which are also newbies on CCN.

So from me there is always only one answer:
You can NEVER learn CCN (or any other) game right, if you learn/play it only Solo or only with another newbie.

Play as many games as possible and against as many different opponents as possible. Sometimes it seems to me,
that new players on Vassal have a great fear, to do this ;)

My dice are the hell!

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5 years 2 months ago #2946 by TheMP
Bayern,

Those that know me from other games KNOW that I never play solo and therefore have a large list of gaming opponents. And you are right. When I have played new or solo gamers in other games that I play, they are often surprised to learn a new rule that they had been playing wrong for YEARS!

Thats one of the fun of opponents. I love to earn game systems inside out. In fact that's why I tend to buy 'systems'. Once you learn the game, you can just add the other games to them with minimum reading.

Back to the breakthrough. In my rules (the 1st ed), I think where the oversight occurred is that there was no mention of the terrain affecting Breakthrough in the Breakthrough section. So perhaps I didn't think of it as a 'move' but rather a combat effect. However, if one DOES take notice of terrain rules for ALL movement whether in the movement phase or the whether the move is in the combat phase, then it all makes sense. It's good to be clear! B)

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5 years 2 months ago #2947 by Sringoot
We figured this out pretty early, a cavalry breakthrough, or any other special rule, is always following the normal rules in the first place.

The same analogy :

You charge a Line Infantry two hexes into a forest, using a bayonet charge card. It can not attack, even if the card says : if may move two hexes and engange in melee. You need to respect the basic rule which says Line can not enter a forest and battle in the same turn.

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5 years 2 months ago #2965 by Bangla
The key is that in the terrain rules, the rule states the unit can move no further that TURN. Often, in other wargames, the movement must stop for that movement phase, but then the combat rules and advance after combat, etc., are not considered movement but part of combat, and so the unit can later advance. In C&C, the simple statement about movement halting for the TURN should suffice.
However, I do sometimes wish rule writers would build into the rules such possible ambiguities. Playtesting of this, and other scenarios must have raised this question in the past, and the normal GMT practice of Living Rules should, I expect, be able to remedy this and other misunderstandings. Newbies spend hours trawling the forums to learn of such discussions where Living Rules could really help.

Playing the Spanish in Gamonal this evening. I expect a walloping, but at least the Pico River may help halt French breakthrough with his HC if he manages to deal with my lights. Now that both of us should be aware of the river limitation on cavalry breakthrough :)

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4 years 8 months ago #3297 by Asroc2000
Certainly an interesting point, and something that occurred during a game I played this week, and I too got it wrong, but accept the This Turn part of the terrain rule is probably the key.
It certainly could have been made clearer in the rules, and, I would suggest, it is worth a paragraph in the FAQ.

(Being a wargamer for 40+ years, my usual policy when resolving a rules problem is a friendly discussion with my opponent, and trying to see what the spirit of the rule is, if the letter of the rule is not clear. My feeling was that since Cavalry generally fight hand to hand rather than use firearms, to actually attack out of the river hex they would in effect have already moved to the targets hex, so if they forced the enemy out they could in reality "take ground" by not doing anything, where as staying in the ford hex was effectively moving backwards after the combat, which they would do if repulsed :)
Luckily my incorrect decision did not greatly effect the outcome of the game, so I don't have to carry too much guilt for this!)
Thanks.

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