Making the Russians better

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4 years 5 months ago #3582 by Mark-McG
On the whole I find the Russian infantry very brittle, and the scenario balance for Expansion 2 seems to bear this out.

So in terms of making the Russians more competitive in the scenarios where there are just Russian units (i.e. not other Allied units) what do you think would work best?
1. All Russian infantry at 4 strength, and Mother Russian makes then 5 strength
2. All Russian infantry are 4 strength less INF die rolled on the Mother Russia roll (selected units = 3 Strength)
3. Doubling the Mother Russia roll
4. Ignoring the first INF symbol instead of flag symbol.
5. Other options?

I'm looking for that stubborn Russian quality.. endurance in the face of extreme adversity....

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4 years 5 months ago #3583 by Bayernkini
Just checked the russian scenario stats here, and 7 of 20 scenarios are outside of my personal balance score of 60:40.
So i would adjust the contemplable scenarios first.

My dice are the hell!

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4 years 5 months ago #3584 by Grondeaux
I agree that the Russians seem too brittle. In combat they just wither away. And that characteristic does not seem historically “right.”

Let’s look at the National characteristics of the INF units:
French: Increased melee against INF
British: Increased standing fire
Spanish: rapid retreat, low moving fire
Russians: holding ground
Austrians: large units, slow movement, rapid retreat
Prussians: iron will, increased melee when standing or battling back

I think your Options 1 and 2 are the best way to solve the issue, without fundamentally changing the character of the Russian INF. Option 4 makes them all armored, like CU units. Option 3 would have just about the same effect as Option 2.

In Option 1, a full-strength Russian INF would be 5 blocks. In battle, it would be like a fast, stubborn Austrian infantry unit. Since the core Mother Russia roll would not be changed, there would not be very many of these units in any given battle. The problem with this option is what to do about the LT. Do they now get 5 blocks as well when increased by a Mother Russia roll? That would make them the strongest LT unit in the game, and that was clearly not the designer's intention.

Option 2 maintains the spirit of the Mother Russia rules… that Russian units often arrived on the battlefield under-strength… but makes it far more likely that most of the Russian INF units will be full strength. As the rules are written, most Russian INF now start a battle under strength. This also solves the issue of the increased LT that Option 1 presents.

My preference is #2. Without radically changing the rules, it would get most Russian units up to full strength. They'd be stubborn buggers, refusing to retreat, but they would no longer melt away like sugar in the rain.

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4 years 5 months ago #3585 by Bayernkini
Well, option 2, a kind of "Counter MR" (was my idea today after the game with Mark) would be indeed the best solution :)

All Russian LN and LT starts with 4 Blocks, for each INF and FLG roll, one block is removed.
Didn´t make thougts about the other results so far ;)

My dice are the hell!

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4 years 5 months ago #3586 by mk20336
Replied by mk20336 on topic Making the Russians better

Bayernkini wrote: Well, option 2, a kind of "Counter MR" (was my idea today after the game with Mark) would be indeed the best solution :)

All Russian LN and LT starts with 4 Blocks, for each INF and FLG roll, one block is removed.
Didn´t make thougts about the other results so far ;)


Sounds like a good solution. I also find Russians too brittle - Mother Russia roll was designed to create effect where part of INF is understrenght, and part is full strenght, but in reality it is only 2-3 max which gets 4th block. I definitely like much more "reverse MR roll". As for rolls, I suggest:
INF - 1 INF block lost
CAV - 1 CAV block lost
ART - 1 ART block lost
XSW - 1 block of any type lost
FLAG - either retret 1 unit or 1 block of any type lost (I preffer latter)

As MR roll was adding too few blocks, I do not want "revers MR roll" to remove too few. Thus XSW removing 1 block.

Thoughts?

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4 years 5 months ago #3587 by TheMP
Replied by TheMP on topic Making the Russians better
Has the designer issued any thoughts on the matter?
I agree, Russian infantry ARE too brittle, especially those that start a scenario within range of enemy artillery. Before you know it they are needing to be retired to the rear to save bannner loss. They are not even all that when attacking into melee with as they start so low. So as per my opening sentence, I'd love to hear his views if any of you more in his loop have garnered any from him.

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4 years 5 months ago #3599 by mk20336
Replied by mk20336 on topic Making the Russians better
Hi MP.
I would say it is rather free discussion amonge the players then official errata (like "home rules"). So it was not yet to any extent verified with Richard.

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4 years 5 months ago #3607 by Tarheel
Replied by Tarheel on topic Making the Russians better
How about all Russian regular inf are 3 strength at start as per usual. Mother Russia roll however will add 2 instead of 1 block to reg inf, or 1 to light inf. Gives some of the Russians more than the usual staying power.

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4 years 5 months ago #3608 by mk20336
Replied by mk20336 on topic Making the Russians better
Seems like elegant change to rules, not throwing everything upside down / reinventing the roll.

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4 years 5 months ago #3609 by Mark-McG
Replied by Mark-McG on topic Making the Russians better
So a bit of numerical analysis on the Expansion 2 scenarios, and this doesn't really throw much light on the subject.

A couple of points;
Of Exp.2 scenarios, 4 have no Mother Russia roll.
For a good number of scenarios with 4-6 Line, a negative Mother Russia roll is essentially the same as a positive roll (11 of 16).
There seems to be no relationship between number of infantry units and win/loss rate (presumably because of Geographic Victory Banners)
Of 20 Expansion 2 scenarios;
4 fall in the 60/40 range
of the 16 remaining, only 2 are pro-Russian by result.
7 are below 30% Russian victories.

So the data seems to confirm that the Russians are not favoured, but not really any relationship to number of Infantry.


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