Thoughts about Prussians after first games

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5 years 10 months ago - 5 years 10 months ago #2224 by Bayernkini
I have now played a lot of prussian games now and have also watched a lot of games.

I like the Prussian rules, with the Iron Will Marker and the +1 die for LN.
For me they are the best nation rules beside the austrians :)

BUT......

I would Play only 2 Scenarios from 1-10 voluntary,
401 - Schleiz
403 - Jena
all other seems outbalanced (outside 70:30) again.

Sure, I have also not played most scenarios 11-20 and we weed still some more games, to see the final balance scores of the scenarios, but what i have seen so far, don´t makes me confident.

So far the spanish scenarios was the general worse setup ones for me,
but now..... :pinch:
In the C&C system i always prefer a balanced setup before a historical, therefore i play the C&C system.
If i want a historical correct setup, i would play one of the 100 other Napoleonics games :huh:

This is only my mind, maybe other players like the prussian scenario setups.

My dice are the hell!
Last edit: 5 years 10 months ago by Bayernkini.

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5 years 10 months ago #2234 by Mark-McG
There is a number of scenarios in the first 12 that seem pro-French, and MT12 seems to have 3-4 out of 6.
Again I think about Bidding to rebalance the scenarios.

My experience is the 1813 scenarios are much better, possible because they tend towards more banners. 4-5 banner scenarios seem more temperamental than 7-8 banner ones.

Two Victory mechanics that I've like have been;
1 Victory Banner for every 2 Prussian units that exit the battlefield from any hex on the Prussian baseline.
and
The Prussian player gains 1 Victory Banner for each scout card he plays.(which is also my preferred Spanish GM option)

In my view, historical setups are very much the preferred option, and the balance comes in the Victory Conditions. The objective is to play your side better than the historical outcome. So I'm content with the setups. but I'd like to see better Victory Conditions, or failing that, bidding to give the unfavoured side a headstart.

Glory is fleeting, but obscurity is forever.
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5 years 10 months ago #2235 by dagorman86
Ive only played 401 and 402 but from both sides but my initial thoughts on the Prussians are quite positive I think they are probably the best line infantry of all the allied nations.

1)The +1 battle back or if haven't moved gives them the ability to go toe to toe with French especially in defensive terrain

2)The retreat 2 per flag after the first isn't that annoying compared to the 2 every flag and never move two of the Austrian line.

3) The 2 battles I've played where light on cavalry with more I think the Prussians will suffer similar to the British as the more powerful French horse win the cavalry fight then pin them in square and with usually more or equal cards to start will allow the French to dissect them like a surgeon.

4) So far I've only played battles from 1806 the later Prussian army with the militia and reserve and infantry suffers a drop in quality ill be interested to see how that plays out

5) I really like the iron will tokens makes assaulting Prussian guns with infantry even more risky

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5 years 10 months ago - 5 years 10 months ago #2257 by Bayernkini
Played and watched now a dozen scenarios of the prussian scenarios 11-20 and
had never thought before, that i would say once, that i prefer the spanish extension/scenarios before any other,
but i do...... :blink:

My dice are the hell!
Last edit: 5 years 10 months ago by Bayernkini.

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5 years 10 months ago #2258 by Grondeaux
I'm a relative newcomer to C&C:N, but I own all the expansions. I find each Allied army to have it's own "charm" and love it that you need to play each one differently. I like playing the Prussians; as others have said the Melee bonus and Iron Will tokens can make life very interesting for the French.

The Prussian scenarios, however, are another matter entirely. All you have to do is look at the results of the MT12 mini-tournament to see that they seem terribly unbalanced. Perhaps I'm prejudiced, as I've been playing as the Prussians. I've gotten thoroughly trounced in each match (4 of 6 so far) and it's not really been due to bad play or bad dice and cards. After only a turn or so, I get this sinking feeling that there's not a whole lot I can do as the Prussians other than try to make the French pay dearly, and lose honorably. Sometimes, you can't even do that. It seems like you need a perfect hand and great dice to have a chance of victory. It's not just me... the MT12 results bear that out.

I haven't played all the Prussian scenarios yet, but outside of Ligny, the ones I have played haven't been much fun as the Prussians. I hope that my impression of the scenario balance is premature and that I'll find the remainder of the scenarios more of a match.

So I like the Prussian army... the scenarios, not so much.

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5 years 10 months ago - 5 years 10 months ago #2261 by Michalxo
As a French player I completely agree with you. Prussian army itself is good, but scenarios are terrible, as mentioned in other thread (MT12 thread?). I would really love to know, why these scenarios are of such a low quality and short.
Not enough play/beta-testing time? :(

So far, I am quite dissapointed. But on photos, they look so great.. :)
Last edit: 5 years 10 months ago by Michalxo.

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5 years 10 months ago #2262 by Viridovilas
It seems that I'm the only voice out of the chorus, but I'm not too disappointed about the Prussian scenarios. And it's not because I'm on the French side in Mt12, since such unbalanced battles will probably lead to a blocks tie-break final rank, which is definitely not my favourite option...

I love, instead, the way scenario design can heavily influence battle outcomes: how a well thought deploying scheme leads to a plausible historical outcome, indipendently of the absolute strenght of any single army. And I'm sure it's not necessary to remember that in most of their first battles against the Napoleon's army, Prussian were simply overwhelmed.

To make my position clear, just consider, for example, a very famous battle like Cannae, even if it belongs to another period. I will never like a game where the Roman chance to win can reach not a 50 percent, but even a 30 percent. Because that would be simply unplausibile. A 1:9 ratio Roman vs Cartago victories would be probably the right balance in this particolar case...

I can agree with Mark's objection about the possibility to introduce some victory conditions, able to somewhat balance scenarios, so that even the "loosing" side can win, simply overperforming its historical counterparts. But probably, at least ihmo, such victory conditions would go behind the scope of what is still a light wargame simulation, as clever and elegant it can be...

Max aka Viridovilas on Vassal

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5 years 10 months ago #2266 by Mark-McG

Michalxo wrote: I would really love to know, why these scenarios are of such a low quality and short.
Not enough play/beta-testing time? :(


Given the lengthy delay between the P500 listing in 2011, then being the 3rd of the 3 expansions listed at that time, and the shortness of the scenario play (3-5 cards in some cases), lack of play testing time seems not a creditable reason.

Generally there is a bias towards the historically victorious side in the scenarios, and this seems more pronounced in this expansion. Whether the intention was to play twice competitively, once as each side, or simply to build up a volume of scenarios for what was historically quite a series of miserable Prussian performances in 1806 I can't say.

My view is the 1813-1815 scenarios seem more balanced, but time will tell.

I certainly think the current 1806 scenarios reflect the humiliation Napoleon inflicted on Prussia, but for competitive play, Prussia needs a headstart of 2-3 banners for most of the 1806 scenarios.

Glory is fleeting, but obscurity is forever.
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The following user(s) said Thank You: Achtung-Panzer, Michalxo

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